I can look back at that, but I'm not really a legal guy. Subway was great in my opinion, but yeah, it's like seeing Jaws the first time - makes me skittish near subways. There's got to be one you just kinda checked out on. Like, 'meh'...pass?
The writers' willingness to play with structure, tone and perspective was always one of the show's great appeals, but I agree Wu's on First didn't land. In the same season the Documentary literally showed us these characters through an outside lens, with Brodie as a David Simon-adjacent figure, so to then throw a Sun reporter into the mix in a way that felt so inconsequential felt like a weird swing.
Closet Cases feels like an episode that would have fared better on HBO - I know you've touched upon it before but I'd love to know more about what compromises were made in this case. It always felt unsatisfying that we got that charged scene in the box, good as it was, but we never got to even briefly see Bayliss enjoying a nice glass of red with Peter Gallagher!
Hey Natasha! Yeah, this show would have been so completely different on HBO. Not sure if the series would have fared better, or just certain episodes - but very different. I think the writers tension with the network at the time, was a huge contributer to the brilliance and the often uneven episdoes. Watching Wu tonight!
If the right combination of drama from the BTS was not in place, HLOTs would never have made it. The push to do the best that you can seemed to be there. Fight on towards another day.
However, what would the series have been like if the drama had not been there? If the hard-party lifestyle did not factor into the writers, crew, and actors.
The environment plays a key role in how art is made. Now, I am not making any money from art yet, but that won't stop me from doing the work. My environment is different, motivation is hard sometimes but the work is real and raw. Now what's the environment like on hlots? Not that money is a key motivation in making this show. Just throwing thst out there.
It seemed to me people wanting to be real in the most drama filled way. Homicides are brutal but so are tv producers and directors. The hustle on the set to get things right. Schedules and set life of who is there and why? Wheres my coffee! The weight and responsibilities of the balance of life. How do I properly take care of myself? Plus living in Baltimore, your home away from.
I feel in order to play a Homicide cop for a tv series, what does one do to learn. Hang around cops and whats your method for acting it out?All of the actors fell into there environments so well that by season 4 the show was even more dramatic because how personel lives of everyone was getting dramatic. More hard work equals a time to decompress. Whsts your vice? Plus its death that always adds into the acting. How would this Homicide detective feel about this death? Writing death. Is it any wonder that Poe died in that city. Man I can't wait to experience it. Totally looking forward to exploring Greenmont Cemetery.
In the real world most people are not around this kind of life. If a tv production or film company comes to your town,please take every opportunity you can to help out and support the cause of art. Homicide stays so beautiful after 30 years because is it has the whole package of why it works. Of course people are going to have trauma from making this show. That is the point of the series. Its Homicide. Honest, dark,gritty because death is real and so are the cops that investigate them. I grew around the funeral home business. Talk about real.
Funny how art can influence other artists. I just got this image of Munch working with his brother at the funeral home. Hey what if? Bayliss,Lewis,Munch funeral home instead of the bar 🍸?
Dark humor id the way to go in this series. It a total noir style 😎.
Good point on Closet Cases. I think that + The Documentary and Prison Riot would've worked perfectly in the HBO format (my theory is Prison Riot was a bit of a conceptual backdoor pilot for Oz, but I digress). The continuation into the next episode w/o showing the date makes for a slightly awkward progression but they did what they could. But you nailed it on the head about Wu's on First.
They backed off on the date. It was one of the top three things I wigged out over during my time there. The other two? I forget. But there were others! There was supposed to be a date and a kiss. a) Network pushback b) wrong era c) Tom told me, that at that time, he would have been fighting an uphill battle in future storylines. So, even though Bayliss was bi, even though he became this vigilante, confronted sexual abuse issues - there were hard lines in the sand. Boy on boy kisses with a fav detective on an edgy show, being one of them. There’s still lines, even though it may not seem like it - different for each show and each character - but they’ll always be there. Audiences know it as well, writers are manipulating perception and preferences in every episode.
The first time I saw Night of the Dead Living, “Huh?” would have matched my reaction, and I hate how that justifies the network decision to run it out of order.
But I think season 6’s “Abduction” fits this as well. It’s a really strange format break in that we have a living victim. It’s a redball that feels like it belongs to another show. So much about the John Walsh-inspired TV personality feels first-drafty to me. Early Homicide would have given the guy some depth, especially with the reveal about his own kid. The writing here doesn’t give the actor much to work with in fleshing out the guy. And considering how famous the real Walsh and his history was, it’s an odd choice to have Falsone in the dark about this guy’s past. Yes, it allows for conflict to come from Falsone misreading him as just another media vulture, but it also means the audience is coming from that angle too. The more interesting path would have been to lay those cards down immediately and explore how an advocate for the family might have legitimate conflict with how the cops are handling it.
Even allowing that season 6 feels like a departure from what came before, this one really seems out of place. And it’s yet another Falsone showcase in a season that went to that well too often already.
Ballard was the girly girl character that Howard and Stivers weren't. She can basically be described as sass, eye rolls and Seattle. I thought she was such a downgrade from Howard.
Ballard just seemed relatable in ways that Kay and Stivers weren’t. Her awkward attempts at dating, doing a man’s job but still wanting to be a mom and wife. Her relating to the AIDS patient over religion, her angst over the bride death case. I don’t know Ballard seemed relatable to me. Renee did as well
I always thought that. Whether it was the writing or just the actor themselves. Not sure about now, but at that time, Callie was a very approachable, relatable, and vulnerable person - and that carries over. Acting chops for days. Tender outside, tender core. At that time, Micheal Michele was a completely different person to write for. Super smart. Tough on outside, vulnerable inside. Different actors. Toni always struck me as smart, pourous, yet always maintaining a positive outlook. She, to me, since I spent less time with her, was the most unknown of the three - even her character which I will be watching very carefully over the next the next couple days.
I thought Stivers was the only woman in the squad who was completely comfortable with herself in the job. No problem standing up for herself or a case but didn't need to force her skills on anyone.
Interesting perspective. Never thought of it that way. I wanted to like her especially since she came from narcotics but she never really left an impression. I will rewatch this in March on my new box set. I’ll have to keep that in mind. Give her another chance.
Michael Michele was great and underrated imo. I was already a fan from her stint on NY Undercover and New Jack City. I'm guilty of not really giving Sheppard a chance on first watch but her portrayal was great and you can tell she put a lot of work and care into the character. The Why Chromosome is an episode I thought was kinda meh but it's grown on me every time I've rewatched it
Sorry, wrote that in a rush. For context, it was similar to Gas Man where it centers more around side characters that never appear again: Elizabeth Wu, the Kellerman Bros. The episode is half wild goose chase around Baltimore with Kellerman, half pointless story about the Sun reporter. No real payoff for the Frank stroke/recovery storyline, the Mahoney saga, Tim's abuse or even the Kellerman storyline. Season 5 was a heavy season, but The Documentary was a better example of a breather episode.
I had a “ huh” moment. But in a good way. A “Whaaaaa?!?!?” Way. The Episode s4ep21 “The Wedding”. When Kay & her sister Florence walked into the squad room, it took me a minute to realize Melissa Leo was playing both parts! It was SO much fun watching her do that. And the flirting with Gee & Bayliss & Kellerman…Tell me that you all had a blast doing that! “You have a sexy brain”
And then Meldrick getting married…another big “Whaaaaa???! And then that storyline went strangely away. I thought it was an odd thing for Meldrick to do. Odd that his character was so deceived by Barbara because he was such an excellent detective. Blinded by love? Then he’s not so sure he did the right thing. Loved Meldrick’s character.
Haven’t read all the comments yet … but The one that immediately comes to mind for me is the episode of Lewis & Kellerman at the motel. It really seemed like they were trying to recreate a Twin Peaks vibe.
2nd would be Wu’s on First… I remember reading that was supposedly a pilot for a spin off of the reporter lady?
And Someone mentioned the Ryland ending… I think they really missed on that. Just some 5 minute explanation of him getting off on a technicality. I always thought it would have been better if it dragged on a bit and he tried to be like Ted Bundy, representing himself except it actually worked. And then Bayliss goes off.
Maybe return to the 3 men & adena aspect of an entire episode of Bayliss just sitting there in court in a room. Nothing else happens except the case, watching this guy represent himself and then at the end he’s set free. Tim is just sitting there at the start “yep we got him” and then as things play out he deteriorates before our eyes and loses hope. Not guilty.
On the flipside, I remember seeing the ad for “Full Moon” and expecting I’d hate it, but it’s one of those eps that’s an EXTREME departure and somehow works beautifully.
Sometimes the occasional “what was that?” misfires are the cost of getting a Subway or a Full Moon.
BTW, check Tod Hoffman's book on what he said and the characters. There is something in there about Bayliss. Tom Pellgrini had some issues with how the Bayliss character transferred onto him. I think he even sued for not getting paid. It's an interesting read.
Two episodes come to mind for completely different reasons. One is the season 5 episode, "Blood Wedding" aka the one where Danvers' fiance is murdered.
The episode only makes me go "huh" in hindsight because I feel like despite this being an extremely traumatizing moment for Danvers, we never really revisit it or his trauma. Very unusual for HLOTS where normally moments like this have heavy implications for characters in episodes and seasons to come. I feel like there was a big missed opportunity here despite the episode itself being strong.
The other one I'd suggest is season 7's "The Twenty Percent Soultion." This one is a big "huh" but not necessarily in a bad way. It was just way more comical and outlandish than I would've expected from an episode. I understand why; David Simon wrote the episode as an obvious homage to the kind of pulp novels and detective stories of the olden days. In that lens of seeing it as a light parody, it succeeds. As an episode of HLOTS though, it's a "Huh?" For sure. That all being said, well directed by Clark Johnson, definitely handled it well.
Sorry for commenting so much but at a dance competition this weekend and bored bored bored. Ideas for the future the female detectives of HLOTS? They all had different perspectives/approaches
Where do I start? Every cop show I watched - American and British - had a variation of the Homolka case. The real story is grisly and really can't be shown on prime time television. I started to get tired of the story. The writing on Homicide usually has something special, but this could have been slipped into any crime series on air at the time. Not much insight here. There's some of the Mahoney story mixed in, but I can follow that storyline without this episode. When I think of a classic Homicide episode, this ain't it.
Probably way too technical of a “miss” but the dismissal of Luke Ryland’s case on Hicks drives me crazy. Never would have happened. Plus if it did it’s on the Judge because he could have found good cause and postponed it or held the trial and ordered the prosecutor to do back to back trials. Dismissal on 4 Amendment grounds because Danvers gave bad advice makes more sense plus explains why Bayliss attacks Danvers. But super technical here. Otherwise I pretty much enjoyed it all except the Subway. Ugh. I still think of that episode when I see the Baltimore metro. Which probably means it was good TV. 😂
I can look back at that, but I'm not really a legal guy. Subway was great in my opinion, but yeah, it's like seeing Jaws the first time - makes me skittish near subways. There's got to be one you just kinda checked out on. Like, 'meh'...pass?
No don’t look into my comment way too technical…just that is that thing that bugs me the most.
The writers' willingness to play with structure, tone and perspective was always one of the show's great appeals, but I agree Wu's on First didn't land. In the same season the Documentary literally showed us these characters through an outside lens, with Brodie as a David Simon-adjacent figure, so to then throw a Sun reporter into the mix in a way that felt so inconsequential felt like a weird swing.
Closet Cases feels like an episode that would have fared better on HBO - I know you've touched upon it before but I'd love to know more about what compromises were made in this case. It always felt unsatisfying that we got that charged scene in the box, good as it was, but we never got to even briefly see Bayliss enjoying a nice glass of red with Peter Gallagher!
Hey Natasha! Yeah, this show would have been so completely different on HBO. Not sure if the series would have fared better, or just certain episodes - but very different. I think the writers tension with the network at the time, was a huge contributer to the brilliance and the often uneven episdoes. Watching Wu tonight!
If the right combination of drama from the BTS was not in place, HLOTs would never have made it. The push to do the best that you can seemed to be there. Fight on towards another day.
However, what would the series have been like if the drama had not been there? If the hard-party lifestyle did not factor into the writers, crew, and actors.
The environment plays a key role in how art is made. Now, I am not making any money from art yet, but that won't stop me from doing the work. My environment is different, motivation is hard sometimes but the work is real and raw. Now what's the environment like on hlots? Not that money is a key motivation in making this show. Just throwing thst out there.
It seemed to me people wanting to be real in the most drama filled way. Homicides are brutal but so are tv producers and directors. The hustle on the set to get things right. Schedules and set life of who is there and why? Wheres my coffee! The weight and responsibilities of the balance of life. How do I properly take care of myself? Plus living in Baltimore, your home away from.
I feel in order to play a Homicide cop for a tv series, what does one do to learn. Hang around cops and whats your method for acting it out?All of the actors fell into there environments so well that by season 4 the show was even more dramatic because how personel lives of everyone was getting dramatic. More hard work equals a time to decompress. Whsts your vice? Plus its death that always adds into the acting. How would this Homicide detective feel about this death? Writing death. Is it any wonder that Poe died in that city. Man I can't wait to experience it. Totally looking forward to exploring Greenmont Cemetery.
In the real world most people are not around this kind of life. If a tv production or film company comes to your town,please take every opportunity you can to help out and support the cause of art. Homicide stays so beautiful after 30 years because is it has the whole package of why it works. Of course people are going to have trauma from making this show. That is the point of the series. Its Homicide. Honest, dark,gritty because death is real and so are the cops that investigate them. I grew around the funeral home business. Talk about real.
Funny how art can influence other artists. I just got this image of Munch working with his brother at the funeral home. Hey what if? Bayliss,Lewis,Munch funeral home instead of the bar 🍸?
Dark humor id the way to go in this series. It a total noir style 😎.
Stay thr Course
Good point on Closet Cases. I think that + The Documentary and Prison Riot would've worked perfectly in the HBO format (my theory is Prison Riot was a bit of a conceptual backdoor pilot for Oz, but I digress). The continuation into the next episode w/o showing the date makes for a slightly awkward progression but they did what they could. But you nailed it on the head about Wu's on First.
They backed off on the date. It was one of the top three things I wigged out over during my time there. The other two? I forget. But there were others! There was supposed to be a date and a kiss. a) Network pushback b) wrong era c) Tom told me, that at that time, he would have been fighting an uphill battle in future storylines. So, even though Bayliss was bi, even though he became this vigilante, confronted sexual abuse issues - there were hard lines in the sand. Boy on boy kisses with a fav detective on an edgy show, being one of them. There’s still lines, even though it may not seem like it - different for each show and each character - but they’ll always be there. Audiences know it as well, writers are manipulating perception and preferences in every episode.
Be sure to let us know what ep you’re going w so we can watch it ahead of time
Wu’s On First and Abduction
The first time I saw Night of the Dead Living, “Huh?” would have matched my reaction, and I hate how that justifies the network decision to run it out of order.
But I think season 6’s “Abduction” fits this as well. It’s a really strange format break in that we have a living victim. It’s a redball that feels like it belongs to another show. So much about the John Walsh-inspired TV personality feels first-drafty to me. Early Homicide would have given the guy some depth, especially with the reveal about his own kid. The writing here doesn’t give the actor much to work with in fleshing out the guy. And considering how famous the real Walsh and his history was, it’s an odd choice to have Falsone in the dark about this guy’s past. Yes, it allows for conflict to come from Falsone misreading him as just another media vulture, but it also means the audience is coming from that angle too. The more interesting path would have been to lay those cards down immediately and explore how an advocate for the family might have legitimate conflict with how the cops are handling it.
Even allowing that season 6 feels like a departure from what came before, this one really seems out of place. And it’s yet another Falsone showcase in a season that went to that well too often already.
Great! I remember nothing, so I’m eager to dive in. I may do a coule of these.
I thought the same about this episode, it's trying to be a different show.
Anything that features Falsone is instantly annoying!
Ballard was the character who drove me nuts. She snapped out constantly!
Ballard was the girly girl character that Howard and Stivers weren't. She can basically be described as sass, eye rolls and Seattle. I thought she was such a downgrade from Howard.
Sass, eye rolls and Seattle! Great!
I liked Ballard but yeah I know a lot of people who feel like you
Ballard just seemed relatable in ways that Kay and Stivers weren’t. Her awkward attempts at dating, doing a man’s job but still wanting to be a mom and wife. Her relating to the AIDS patient over religion, her angst over the bride death case. I don’t know Ballard seemed relatable to me. Renee did as well
I always thought that. Whether it was the writing or just the actor themselves. Not sure about now, but at that time, Callie was a very approachable, relatable, and vulnerable person - and that carries over. Acting chops for days. Tender outside, tender core. At that time, Micheal Michele was a completely different person to write for. Super smart. Tough on outside, vulnerable inside. Different actors. Toni always struck me as smart, pourous, yet always maintaining a positive outlook. She, to me, since I spent less time with her, was the most unknown of the three - even her character which I will be watching very carefully over the next the next couple days.
I thought Stivers was the only woman in the squad who was completely comfortable with herself in the job. No problem standing up for herself or a case but didn't need to force her skills on anyone.
Interesting perspective. Never thought of it that way. I wanted to like her especially since she came from narcotics but she never really left an impression. I will rewatch this in March on my new box set. I’ll have to keep that in mind. Give her another chance.
Michael Michele was great and underrated imo. I was already a fan from her stint on NY Undercover and New Jack City. I'm guilty of not really giving Sheppard a chance on first watch but her portrayal was great and you can tell she put a lot of work and care into the character. The Why Chromosome is an episode I thought was kinda meh but it's grown on me every time I've rewatched it
Wu's on First - Probably the most random episode of the show, given where it sits in the season's narrative
Thanks Avery. I’ll watch it tonight.
Sorry, wrote that in a rush. For context, it was similar to Gas Man where it centers more around side characters that never appear again: Elizabeth Wu, the Kellerman Bros. The episode is half wild goose chase around Baltimore with Kellerman, half pointless story about the Sun reporter. No real payoff for the Frank stroke/recovery storyline, the Mahoney saga, Tim's abuse or even the Kellerman storyline. Season 5 was a heavy season, but The Documentary was a better example of a breather episode.
Yeah, I think they were excited about having Reed and his two besties to play with. I’ll be watching that this week as well.
Oh yeah the episode with Kellermans brothers was meh
I had a “ huh” moment. But in a good way. A “Whaaaaa?!?!?” Way. The Episode s4ep21 “The Wedding”. When Kay & her sister Florence walked into the squad room, it took me a minute to realize Melissa Leo was playing both parts! It was SO much fun watching her do that. And the flirting with Gee & Bayliss & Kellerman…Tell me that you all had a blast doing that! “You have a sexy brain”
And then Meldrick getting married…another big “Whaaaaa???! And then that storyline went strangely away. I thought it was an odd thing for Meldrick to do. Odd that his character was so deceived by Barbara because he was such an excellent detective. Blinded by love? Then he’s not so sure he did the right thing. Loved Meldrick’s character.
The whole episode was so chaotic and fun.
Haven’t read all the comments yet … but The one that immediately comes to mind for me is the episode of Lewis & Kellerman at the motel. It really seemed like they were trying to recreate a Twin Peaks vibe.
2nd would be Wu’s on First… I remember reading that was supposedly a pilot for a spin off of the reporter lady?
And Someone mentioned the Ryland ending… I think they really missed on that. Just some 5 minute explanation of him getting off on a technicality. I always thought it would have been better if it dragged on a bit and he tried to be like Ted Bundy, representing himself except it actually worked. And then Bayliss goes off.
Maybe return to the 3 men & adena aspect of an entire episode of Bayliss just sitting there in court in a room. Nothing else happens except the case, watching this guy represent himself and then at the end he’s set free. Tim is just sitting there at the start “yep we got him” and then as things play out he deteriorates before our eyes and loses hope. Not guilty.
On the flipside, I remember seeing the ad for “Full Moon” and expecting I’d hate it, but it’s one of those eps that’s an EXTREME departure and somehow works beautifully.
Sometimes the occasional “what was that?” misfires are the cost of getting a Subway or a Full Moon.
BTW, check Tod Hoffman's book on what he said and the characters. There is something in there about Bayliss. Tom Pellgrini had some issues with how the Bayliss character transferred onto him. I think he even sued for not getting paid. It's an interesting read.
Two episodes come to mind for completely different reasons. One is the season 5 episode, "Blood Wedding" aka the one where Danvers' fiance is murdered.
The episode only makes me go "huh" in hindsight because I feel like despite this being an extremely traumatizing moment for Danvers, we never really revisit it or his trauma. Very unusual for HLOTS where normally moments like this have heavy implications for characters in episodes and seasons to come. I feel like there was a big missed opportunity here despite the episode itself being strong.
The other one I'd suggest is season 7's "The Twenty Percent Soultion." This one is a big "huh" but not necessarily in a bad way. It was just way more comical and outlandish than I would've expected from an episode. I understand why; David Simon wrote the episode as an obvious homage to the kind of pulp novels and detective stories of the olden days. In that lens of seeing it as a light parody, it succeeds. As an episode of HLOTS though, it's a "Huh?" For sure. That all being said, well directed by Clark Johnson, definitely handled it well.
Sorry for commenting so much but at a dance competition this weekend and bored bored bored. Ideas for the future the female detectives of HLOTS? They all had different perspectives/approaches
Strangled, Not Stirred (season 6)
Where do I start? Every cop show I watched - American and British - had a variation of the Homolka case. The real story is grisly and really can't be shown on prime time television. I started to get tired of the story. The writing on Homicide usually has something special, but this could have been slipped into any crime series on air at the time. Not much insight here. There's some of the Mahoney story mixed in, but I can follow that storyline without this episode. When I think of a classic Homicide episode, this ain't it.
We’re on the same wavelength, Amanda, because this was my pick after “Abduction.”
😄 Abduction was 2nd pick for me
Probably way too technical of a “miss” but the dismissal of Luke Ryland’s case on Hicks drives me crazy. Never would have happened. Plus if it did it’s on the Judge because he could have found good cause and postponed it or held the trial and ordered the prosecutor to do back to back trials. Dismissal on 4 Amendment grounds because Danvers gave bad advice makes more sense plus explains why Bayliss attacks Danvers. But super technical here. Otherwise I pretty much enjoyed it all except the Subway. Ugh. I still think of that episode when I see the Baltimore metro. Which probably means it was good TV. 😂